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Wednesday, June 27, 2018

Hell or High Waters

stilton’s place, stilton, political, humor, conservative, cartoons, jokes, hope n’ change, maxine waters, red hen, confrontation, violence, trump, cabinet

Angry rhetoric encouraging Lefties to seek out and harass those with whom they have ideological disagreements has gotten way out of hand.

Things are so bad that following Maxine Waters spittle-flecked demands for mob actions against members of the Trump administration (and presumably Trump voters), that Nancy Pelosi - no stranger to ugly rhetoric herself - had to step up to condemn the Democratic representative's threatening words.

For lack of a better term, we'll call Mad Maxine's law-abusing minions "Lynch Mobs," as a tip of the hat to Loretta Lynch's long stint of corrupting the DOJ along ideological lines. And really, who needs due process these days before attacking those who you don't want sharing your community, your government, your restaurants, or your drinking fountains?

Meanwhile, the mainstream media is doing its level best to clamp down on this dangerous excess of unthinking hatred...
Mike Luckovich won a Pulitzer for drawing brain dead crap like this. Even so, if you see him and his family
 dining in a restaurant please don't pee in his soup. Unless, of course, you can get video.
Only kidding! They're ramping the whole fake situation up by ignoring Trump's many accomplishments while calling him - and us - Nazis, and they won't be satisfied until there's actual blood running in the streets. And they don't care whose blood it is - they'll be able to spin it the way they want (against Trump and against America) no matter who assumes room temperature.

When an entire political party is so out of ideas that they resort to calls for violence, we should all be afraid. Not afraid for ourselves as conservatives, libertarians, or simple patriots (in violent confrontations, pussy hats, placards, and smart phones will prove to be of surprisingly little tactical value in the face of second amendment tools), but rather afraid for our country itself.

No enemy can defeat us from without...but there can be no winning another civil war.

And we are very near the point where law enforcement should be enthusiastically used to curtail the Constitutionally unprotected hate speech that is calling for such. The laws are, after all, already on the books:

        US Code 2101 on Riots:
(a) Whoever travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses any facility of interstate or foreign commerce, including, but not limited to, the mail, telegraph, telephone, radio, or television, with intent—
(1) to incite a riot; or
(2) to organize, promote, encourage, participate in, or carry on a riot; or
(3) to commit any act of violence in furtherance of a riot; or
(4) to aid or abet any person in inciting or participating in or carrying on a riot or committing any act of violence in furtherance of a riot;
and who either during the course of any such travel or use or thereafter performs or attempts to perform any other overt act for any purpose specified in subparagraph (A), (B), (C), or (D) of this paragraph— [1] Shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

AND LEST WE FORGET...

stilton’s place, stilton, political, humor, conservative, cartoons, jokes, hope n’ change, cow, bear, sarah huckabee sanders, red hen, chicken cross the road, ig report, coups, trump
But not a lot truer.

36 comments:

Velveeta Processed Cheese Food said...

A lot of good stuff in here tonight, but all I've got say is that cow in the dress always cracks me up.

Section147 said...

Something terrible is gonna happen alright, but my guess is that it may happen to that 100% batshit crazy racist colored man in the James Brown wig. And while we're on the subject of certifiable lunatics, "cartoonists" like Luckovich (well, especially Luckovich)need to be "pushed back on" for the damage they've done. Seriously, Stilt...I've always preached staying above the fray, but this is the straw. Not turning the other cheek anymore. SO done with this. Bring it.

Wow. Nearly 50 years ago...

I see a bad moon a-rising
I see trouble on the way
I see earthquakes and lightnin'
I see bad times today
Don't go 'round tonight
It's bound to take your life
There's a bad moon on the rise
I hear hurricanes a-blowing
I know the end is coming soon
I fear rivers over flowing
I hear the voice of rage and ruin
Don't go 'round tonight
It's bound to take your life
There's a bad moon on the rise
I hope you got your things together
I hope you are quit prepared to die
Look's like we're in for nasty weather
One eye is taken for an eye
Oh don't go 'round tonight
It's bound to take your life
There's a bad moon on the rise
There's a bad moon on the rise

Dan said...

US Code 2101 doesn't mean squat if it's not employed/enforced.

We've been through this a bunch of times, and our government normally doesn't employ the laws it has to put down the unauthorized demonstrations (ICE bldg, various homes, etc.). Plus, local law enforcement often doesn't enforce the state/local laws either.

I'm just tired of the lack of enforcement. Weren't most of the folks arrested during the Inauguration rioting finally released and not fined or otherwise punished?

Just like a kid needs to be disciplined, these knuckleheads need to be as well. The more they push the envelope without being stopped, the further they'll push it tomorrow.

Inciting and organizing need to be punished severely. How about aiding and abetting through funding?

Punish these people. Starting with Hillary and Soros.

REM1875 said...

Take out the people with the microphones and cameras first .......Dick the butcher was wrong.

Jim Irre said...

Democrat, black, woman, politician. Four reasons that moon-bat will never be held accountable for what she says or what comes of it.

Fish Out of Water said...

I struggle to find an adequate wway if expressing my disgust and revulsion at that the so-called political cartoon, that really borders on something a smart-assed junior high school student would come up with, that accompanies your latest post. And there's a major newspaper who carries this crap without question?

To be charitable (and that's asking a great deal) I would put this down as another example of what I heard from a German while I was living in Japan. He said that America is a huge island from which very few people choose to venture out from. IOW, there are many who ou of lack of worldly experince sometimes say outrageous things, like that 'cartoon'.

Many of the unhinged cry out about a 'dictatorship' but thanks to being in this country, they haven't even the slightest idea of what really living in a dictatorship is like, be it what it was under the Nazis, or under a Communist government. Especially when making comparisons to the Nazis, I would imagine the now small number of Holocaust survivors would feel their suffering and the entire Holocaust tragedy is being minimalized for the sake of "progressive" demagoguery.

Bobo the Hobo said...

Someone is going to get hurt; we’re running out of cheeks to turn.

Snark said...

When things turn really southward and the looney lefties decide to get personally violent, I have a bit of advice: There aren't any rules to a knife fight....and don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Judi King said...

The stupidity and insanity of the left has pretty much gone over the top. I have seen the creeping evil since the late fifties and now it's coming to a head. Do these morons, being played by master manipulators, really want to live under oppressive socialism, communism or a dictatorship? And don't they get it that the right, the conservatives, the silent majority (call us what you will) have finally had enough and we have most of the 300 million guns in the US? I have never seen such clueless sheep in my life. Most of their so called free speech marches and demonstrations are obviously staged and they are just dupes or useful idiots. And they call us nazis!!!??? My heart is breaking for this country.

Geoff King said...

The left has become completely unhinged. No longer do they believe in the democractic process of civil debate and voting for what you believe in. They now believe that inciting violence is the only way to regain their control of this country.
Like spoiled children throwing a temper tantrum, they are trying to denounce anything that does not fit their agenda and they no longer care about the truth or the consequences of their actions.
This is exactly how civil wars start, and I can all but taste George Soros' involvement in this.
Now the RNC has stepped up to the plate with this ad showing the ridiculousness of what the left considers political activisim:

https://youtu.be/eFRHX6glTSM

I see no good coming from this, on either side.

jpb252 said...

It's hard to laugh when mobs of Democrat brown shirts are roaming the streets.

Fred Ciampi said...

I pray every day that the loony left stops pushing. One of these days a bunch of well trained military veterans who have fought for freedom, spent years' away from family, suffered in the heat and cold, been trained to eliminate foes quietly and with extreme prejudice, and hate to see their hard earned taxes wasted on non-working ass holes, are going to reach the limit of their collective patience. I would say that there will be hell to pay but that will only be a curtain riser. Oh, where did I put my 'shine?

Oh, and veterans aren't the only ones as there are many non-veterans who are quite patriotic and can take out a deer from 1,000 yards. 'Nuff said.

Fred Ciampi said...

Geoff King, nice ad. And the poignant question; "When was the last time an actor assassinated a President?" And there are too many actors spitting out vile hatred towered our president.

AmyH said...

Bravo! Exactly what I've been thinking. How could they scream "dictator" or "Nazi" if they have never lived or experienced either of them? The extreme over the top rhetoric is getting old, very old. I cannot take them seriously. There is no constructive dialog anymore.

Dave from New London WI. said...

Just bought more ammo. I'm ready for "The Great Social Disorder" that is coming.

TrickyRicky said...

I am the very last one to prosthelytize. We never post campaign signs in our yard. We keep to ourselves and generally keep our own council. That being said, as many pundits have already mentioned, the upcoming mid-terms are the most important of our lifetimes. The anarchic leftists have shown that they no longer respect the ballot box. If their side doesn't win, the election is de facto fraudulent. If the Republicans can hold the House we have a chance to weather this storm of petulant pissants. If not, the resulting impeachment efforts over two years will further fragment our democratic republic. Not an attractive outcome. I think it was Rush who said the other day (paraphrasing)...No matter how spineless and compromised your candidate on the Republican side is, now is the time to vote straight ticket, because we know that the other side will vote en bloc to raise taxes, eliminate borders, impeach our duly elected president, and forever halt the cleansing of the FBI/DOJ cesspool.

Speak to your family, friends and neighbors if you have any inkling that they may be inherently honest, but sitting on the fence. Many do not realize that the Democrat party no longer exists. They are now full-on socialist and anarchists. The Republican party is now where the Dems were 40 years ago. This year is important, be engaged.

Walter L Stafford said...

Put the bitch in prison or anyone that talks insurrection. If something like this had happened when the half-breed, Kenyan OSambo was in office Al and Jesse would be there with their various "coalitions"(I hate that word) demanding some type of investigation. A coalition is nothing but a formal word for a bunch of blood-sucking spear chunkers to make money the way organized criminals make it! Steal it from their supporters!
P. T. Barnum was a soothsayer...there is a sucker born every minute!

James Daily said...

Oh, my. Laura turned the other cheek and Maxine whacked it. This whole rhetoric of bashing President Trump, calling his supporters Public Enemy #1 is getting out of hand. At least I am on the side that has the guns. That whole party of compassion is a lie as we have always known and their true colors are showing. Well I tell them now, they are pissing in the wind as President Trump will not quit, will not be impeached and will continue to MAGA. He has already accomplished more in a year and a half than other presidents accomplished in eight years. His wins in the Supreme Court hurt them badly and they will continue to use the courts to get what the voters do not want. These are some very vicious, sick people. (And I LOVE Laura filing assault charges on Maxine! I only wish she had gone to the emergency room to get mummified.)

Amemrican Cowboy said...

We have a saying up here. "If you mess with the bull, you are going to get the horn!"

One can only poke a hornets nest for so long until they get stung. The anarchists on the left have been poking the hornets nest and messing with the bull long enough. It won't be long before they get stung and get the horn, and it won't be pretty when it happens.

John the Econ said...

I lived in Southern California when this vile woman cheered on the LA riots of '92 where over a billion dollars of damage was done to her own district and dozens of people were killed and hundreds more injured. So her antics aren't anything new to me. Her most recent hate spew was bad enough that Pelosi, Schumer and other racist old-white-Democrats finally had to step up to foam her down. But notice that they don't have the guts to do any more than that. Had Waters been a Republican, the pressure would have been to have her step down.

It's interesting to note that from the plantation, the Congressional Black Caucus continues to defend her but she's losing support from blacks in her own district. Might it be that they're realizing that as Auntie Maxine's fortunes have risen considerably over the last several decades, their's did not until very recently?

Pelosi, Schumer and the handful of smarter Democrats are just bright enough to have recently figured out that not only is their hate Trump agenda not working, but is actually empowering Trump. The more unhinged the left gets, the more sane Trump appears. Combine that with an improving economy and the mistaken impression that what America really wants is less Trump and more socialism, and the outlook is not good for Democrats.

#Winning.

Trump: Worst Nazi ever!: Of course, if Trump was the Nazi we've all been told he his, I would have thought that Pelosi, Schumer, Waters and the rest would be in camps by now. Instead, they're front and center, more shrill than ever.

And consider this: Why is it that if America is the worst country in the world for women and non-whites, why do they continue to risk life and limb to to flee countries already run supported and run exclusively by far-left Progressives to come and be slaves or imprisoned in the awful, racist, sexist USA?

Makes no sense at all, does it?

John the Econ said...

@Dan says "US Code 2101 doesn't mean squat if it's not employed/enforced."

Exactly, just as the volumes of immigration law don't. And of course, the Clintons have collectively violated most of the US Code with minimal repercussion, encouraging even more malfeasance all through the deep-state.

Most of our current lawlessness could be corrected merely by enforcing existing code. And as long as that enforcement remains selective as it has been for decades, people world-wide, both citizens and non-citizens will lost respect for both the law, and the country as a whole.

@Judi King says "Do these morons, being played by master manipulators, really want to live under oppressive socialism, communism or a dictatorship?"

Either through ignorance of history or religious devotion to their ideology, they honestly think they'll somehow be exempt from the repercussions of their agenda. I can understand why "the mega-rich" buy into Progressivism, because they can afford to insulate themselves from most of the consequences, at least in the short-term. But why those of the middle class would think this has always been beyond me, especially considering the history. They honestly don't get it that under any near-communist paradigm, the economically useless (as most of these activists tend to be) are usually the first either starved, sent to a gulag, or with their back against a wall.

@Geoff King, I wholeheartedly agree. And that video is devastating! When Trump won, all we heard about was the violence of the right, but what did we actually get? The ironically-named Antifa, the "arts" community doubling-down on violent, vile and grotesque imagery, and calls by for violence and murder. Since the Democrats have no other agenda going for them into the mid-terms than moving even further to the left, let this be the front-and-center agenda.

Getting rid of the Clintons alone is not going to be enough to save them.

PvtCharlieSlate said...

In 1890 the head of the US Naval War College, Capt. Alfred Thayer Mahan, wrote a little book titled "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History". This was a time when the epitome of military power projection was the battleship fleet. The book became very famous and influential.
One of the topics Mahan discussed was the concept of the "Fleet in Being". His contention was that a nation, just by possessing a large, modern, effective and powerful fleet, could have its way on the high seas. He also pointed that the longer the fleet remained a "Fleet in Being" without ever becoming a "Fleet in Action" the less influential it would become.
Our Constitution's Second Amendment has been a land-locked "Fleet in Being" for over two hundred years. Maxine and her lemmings are asking for "action".

Alfonso Bedoya said...

Darn! I had a dream where I was cornered in some lib restaurant by someone who called me a "Nazi," but by wearing my "DEPLORABLE" tee-shirt the situation was somehow immediately defused.

Getting back to reality: Anyone calls me a "Nazi," and I will gladly buy them a "knuckle sandwich" at no charge...none whatsoever.

Gee M said...

https://www.conservativeinstitute.org/crime-criminal-justice/crime-stories/florida-man-chaArged-threatening.htm

Florida Democrat was arrested on Tuesday for threatening to kill the children of a Republican congressman. Laurence Wayne Key...
Key was reportedly angry about the Donald Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” immigration policy that has led to some families being separated at the border.

“Don’t try to find me”
According to the criminal complaint, Key called the congressman’s Washington office on Monday and told an intern that he would “find the congressman’s kids and kill them.”

He added: “If you’re going to separate kids at the border, I’m going to kill his kids. Don’t try to find me because you won’t.”

The intern reported the message to their supervisor. The FBI opened an investigation and took Key into custody shortly afterward.


Key told the FBI and a Martin County officer that he did not threaten to kill Mast’s kids, but said that Mast should be separated from his kids if he supports the administration’s immigration policy. The intern who took the call said they are “150 [percent] sure” that Key used the term “kill” in his threat.

Key is being held in St. Lucie County jail awaiting a bond hearing.

Just thinking...so, this rally goes on in Florida, Florids Repub Congressman goes into eatery with wife and his adult sons and 1 grandkid maybe 12 y.o. ...crowd forms per Maxi's rant, family is surrounded by screeching leftwingers...Laurence Wayne Key (or someone just like him} is passing by, sees crowd and joins them...he gets all "fired up" and takes out his 7 shot pocket 9mm and shoots the evil Repub lawmaker and his family...
Ask the Hon. Steve Scalise how far a stretch my scenario is...Good thing no one hassling SHS and family at the Foul Red Chicken was packin' and far enough down that road to wanna use it.
I am wincing at Crazy Maxi's words just waiting for a severe beatdown or a shooting to happen...then retribution will be callwd for and Maxi will demand SS protection.
Remember: gun control is hitting what you aim at...

Gee M said...


p.s.

Congressman Mast is an Army veteran who received the Bronze Star Medal and a Purple Heart for his service. While serving in Afghanistan in 2010, he lost both of his legs and a finger as a result of an IED explosion.

John the Econ said...

This just in:

Anthony Kennedy retiring from Supreme Court

If you think the left has been unhinged up until now, you've seen nothing yet. Will Trump dare replace him with a conservative straight white male?

Geoff King said...

Not a bad speech Trump gave to the National Federation of Independent Businesses a couple of days ago. It appears to be from the heart and teleprompter free.

https://youtu.be/vn7hZHKomJA

Almost makes me sorry I did not vote for the man.

Regnad Kcin said...

Maxine Waters needs to keep up her diatribes so her compatriots will file censure charges against her. DJT said to her the other day that she should be careful what she wishes for... Keep raving on catshit, you'll be buried yet...

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@Velveeta Processed Cheese Food- We haven't seen the Bear & Cow team for awhile, and I was happy to bring them back. There's a wistfulness to that cow that I closely identify with.

@Section147- I think it will be hard for any of us to stay above the fray, but I'm hoping we can somehow keep that fray out of the realm of violence that the Left seems to be pushing.

@Dan- I completely agree. We have boatloads of great laws going unenforced, which rather makes a mockery of the whole concept.

@REM1875- As in, "take them out" for dinner and drinks and rational political debate?

@Jim Irre- All of that has been true in the past. I think maybe it's time that Trump changes those unwritten rules.

@Fish Out of Water- The Lukovich cartoon makes me insane. That's a pure injection of poison into the political dialogue. If I can go on a diversionary rant, there's a belief (rightly or wrongly) that you can't hypnotize someone and make them do something they absolutely wouldn't normally do...like murder someone. But,what happens if you hypnotize a subject into believing that another person has raped and killed the subject's loved ones, then hand them a gun? Ka-pow!

See, that's what the media is doing right now: hypnotizing the feeble minds on the Left to believe that our side just plain needs killing because we're evil to the core. That's going to get someone, and maybe a lot of someones, killed.

And a great observation that it is the horrendous ignorance of Americans (geographically, culturally, historically) that allow them to sustain the myth that our nation is the worst hellhole on Earth. So a big "congratulations" to the Left for successfully making sure that schools no longer provide enough education to make for an informed populace.

@Bobo the Hobo- I'm already on number 4.

@Snark- I pray it doesn't come to that. That being said, all bets are off when mobs start attacking people with an American flag on their shirt.

@Judi King- Good points, all. And you pretty much summed it up when you called our opposition "morons."

@Geoff King- Wow, I loved that video! I'd like to see a lot more of that kind of thing in the future.

@jpb252- But we can still titter, right?

@Fred Ciampi- Exactly right. Tragically, the Lefties don't realize they're being used as cannon fodder by those like Maxine Waters who would delight in their martyrdom. As many have previously observed, if our side was the crazy, dangerous, gun-toting group we're described to be, this whole discussion would already be over. But we're not, of course. We're just people who are getting tired of ignorant radicals pushing and pushing to see where our limits are.

@AmyH- Those who forget history are not only doomed to repeat it, they're doomed to recreate it.

@Dave from New London WI- Hopefully you'll never need that ammo. But it's better to never need it than to not have it.

@TrickyRicky- I completely agree; these midterms are unbelievably critical. We're all working without a net these days and can't take anything for granted.

@Walter L Stafford- I agree that it's time for prison (or fines at the very least) for this kind of violence-inducing rhetoric. And here's a potentially useful idea: howzabout making it an actual crime to call someone a Nazi who is not, in fact, a Nazi?

Stilton Jarlsberg said...

@James Daily- However one feels about Trump (and God knows I have my ups and downs) you have to be willfully blind to not see the many great accomplishments he's racking up. At this point in his first term, Obama was still trying to pick silverware patterns for the White House dining room. Trump, on the other hand, is shaking up the whole world for our nation's benefit...which one would rather think is the very job description of President of the United States.

@American Cowboy- I agree, but as I've said above the real puppet masters will actually enjoy seeing casualties among the Leftists. Makes it easier to demonize our side. Too bad those who will be first to fall don't realize how they're being played or how little they'll be mourned.

@John the Econ- Too many great remarks for me to do anything other than just enthusiastically agree!

@PvtCharlieSlate- That's a fascinating perspective. And you're right, the Left has pretty much forgotten (if they ever knew) what "action" really means.

@Gee M- Great comments. The wrong "someone" is going to get pushed over the line of sanity (which doesn't take much of a push for a Leftist) and something Very Bad is likely to happen. And there's only one side that wants that to happen: the Left.

@John the Econ- Hosannah! Another Supreme Court pick for Trump! You're right, the Left is going to go to whole new heights of batshit crazy (to use the common vernacular) over this development. I'm loving it!

@Geoff King- Similarly, such speeches make me feel less guilty that I did vote for the man.

@Regnad Kcin- On the other hand, Rush Limbaugh is all for Mad Maxine continuing to run her mouth off. As John the Econ so frequently says, "if you want more Trump, this is how you get more Trump."

Geoff King said...

I'll just put this here for everyone's consideration:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mA2b4QR_UKw&has_verified=1&oref=https%3A%2F%2Faccounts.google.com%2Fsignin%2Fv2%2Fsl%2Fpwd%3Fltmpl%3Dmobile%26continue%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fm.youtube.com%252Fsignin%253Faction_handle_signin%253Dtrue%2526noapp%253D1%2526app%253Dm%2526feature%253Dmobile%2526hl%253Den%2526next%253D%25252Fverify_age%25253Famp%25253D%252526client%25253Dmv-google%252526debug_prerolls%25253Dfalse%252526layout%25253Dmobile%252526next%25253D%2525252Fwatch%2525253Fv%2525253DmA2b4QR_UKw%25252526has_verified%2525253D1%252526tsp%25253D1%252526utcoffset%25253D-420%26uilel%3D3%26hl%3Den%26service%3Dyoutube%26passive%3Dtrue%26flowName%3DGlifWebSignIn%26flowEntry%3DServiceLogin%26cid%3D1%26navigationDirection%3Dforward&has_verified=1&client=mv-google&layout=mobiles

James Daily said...

If Kennedy is folding his tent, could Breyer and Ginsburg be far behind? (80 & 85).
This is either going to be fun to watch or time to dig a foxhole. Can you say
five to four? Six to three? SEVEN to TWO? The court will be set for many, many years and not a damn thing the liberals can do about it. BE SURE AND VOTE IN NOV. This one is really, really important.

Geoff King said...

After posting my last entry, I did some research on the source of that video. I found the website called: qanon.pub
It appears to be an anti-deep state, anti-globalist, pro-Trump website.
If you do decide to check it out, I found that you must click on the American flag icon to recieve any content.

Colby Muenster said...

I'm sure that the idiots who vote for Maxine over and over and over and over are delighted. Or, maybe not. In retrospect, they probably don't even have a clue who she is; they just pull the Democrat lever every two years.

I don't "Facebook," but Mrs. Muenster does. Every day she sees posts from friends who are absolutely DISTRAUGHT at what Trump is doing to this country. I have thought an awful lot about this, and still do not get it. Employment levels are way up (record numbers for Blacks especially), we get to keep more of our own money, companies are hiring like mad and spending capital money again, ISIS is nearly a distant memory, the Saudi's are taking a pro-western stance and beginning to consider that women have rights too, the two Koreas are talking and cooperating for the first time in decades, the stock market is going bonkers... other than Trump's occasional cringe worthy Tweets, I honestly cannot think of anything he is doing that is bad.

So.... keep it up, moonbats. You are only going to get more Trump and more Republicans elected (along with your more money and more freedom).

@James Daily,
I have a hunch Breyer and Darth Vader Ginsburg were toying with the idea of retirement, until Trump came along. I'm betting we are stuck with both now until they either die, or we have a Democrat president. I wonder if there is a black woman on Trump's list of possible Kennedy replacements. Now wouldn't THAT be a hoot to watch the libtards dragging a black woman through the mud!

Sandra J. Brown said...

This isn't funny anymore. The Dems reaction to losing power (and control of the money) has gone way beyond a joke. Weren't they the ones plumping for Political Correctness? How do you like dem apples kids?

Greywuff zfavrr said...

@Judi King Remember the last times people went "over the top" they walked into a million muzzle flashes (WW1 reference for those who aren't sure what I meant)